Battle Royale: Atheist vs. Believer
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“I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong.” Bertrand Russell (thanks Jonesy)
I have written a few hubs about my opinions concerning atheism and religion because they are topics that are important to me personally. I have been continually intrigued with the discussion in the comments about my opinions. I am also somewhat frustrated and disappointed in how much arguing seems to transpire. I very much enjoy people commenting back and forth and discussing what they believe in. I appreciate people who are passionate about their beliefs.
I understand that religion is an incredibly polarizing topic, but I am always amazed at how nearly every person feels that their specific belief is the correct one. I think it's important that all people understand that whatever they believe in could be wrong or could be right. Why is that so hard to grasp?
What's the Deal?: I guess I don't quite understand why it is so important for religious people to constantly attempt to prove the existence of God to atheists. I do understand why they want to prove God, but you should realize that atheists aren't going to believe you. I'm an atheist because I don't believe that it is possible that any god exists. That's my opinion. I'm not a religious scholar and I'm not especially well read. I have a degree in Economics, but honestly, I've forgotten most of what I studied in college. So, when I give my opinion, it's just my opinion on how I see the world as a regular man. I'm not angry at people who believe in God and I'm not angry at people who believe in Buddha, Krishna or any other thing else they choose to believe in.
My Inspiration: I don't write my hubs in an attempt to prove anyone wrong about what they believe, even if I think their beliefs are insane, ridiculous or well founded. That's not my business. I write what I feel about life which comes from my personal experiences. I fully understand that what I believe in could be 100% incorrect. I have absolutely zero ego when it comes to my "non-belief" system. But that's what makes me different than a lot of people. Most people are terrified to even think they could be wrong. Most believers are terrified that they aren't going to end up in heaven. Most people believe out of fear. Fear is a cornerstone of American religion. That fact is not even up for debate.
A few comment on my hubs that make me scratch my head:
- Honest Atheists, who take atheistic evolution to its logical conclusion, are forced to admit what atheist Dan Barker said: that, if need be, he would rape millions of girls to save the rest of humanity. After all, if we are nothing but advanced ape-like creatures, and “our male ancestors became ancestors in part because they conditionally used rape,” then, as evolutionist Randy Thornhill confessed, “rape is evolutionary, biological, and natural”
- Atheism directly supports anarchy because it denies any absolute authority. Each man & woman is left to choose what seems best to them... this always devolves into anarchy.
- Atheism in essence is a "donut hole" trying to be part of the "donut". It is a shadow that lacks light; it is absent of their own terms and must borrow from the theistic paradigm and use words like morality, good, evil etc... to justify purpose for existence.
- Good, evil and atheism are not compatible. When put together it is apocryphal.
Sorry, but those comments make me want to attempt to place my head in my arse and look for answers. I think maybe that some people are so blinded by their fervent belief system that they have no ability to reason logically when questioned. It's very difficult for me to understand how any person can follow a belief system that was written thousands of years ago. To me, the Bible is just a collection of stories handed down over time. Kind of like the telephone game. That's my opinion. My "opinion."
Summary: Is it so hard for you to just say "My beliefs could be wrong?" No matter what you believe in or don't believe in, you should be prepared that you could be wrong. I know it's so difficult for most people to even entertain that idea, but you have to. I ask you to stop being scared of the unknown. I ask you to stop thinking that what you believe is the only way. I ask you to open your mind enough to understand that we could all be wrong one day. I ask you to use more common sense and less blind faith. I ask you to stop floating through life thinking that you are better than everyone else. Is that so hard?
"I'm a polyatheist- there are many gods I don't believe in." Dan Fouts
Will you admit that your belief system could be wrong?
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I agree with every point you made here, 100%. If you don't mind me quoting a comment I made on another hub, this is how I express the same viewpoint:
"Anything that is worth debating is worth debating well. You posit a point, and I either counter it, or I agree. If the debate is complicated, we might continue like that for a long while. Indefinitely, in fact. Point by point we move forward, hoping for, by perhaps never finding, an eventual conclusion.
If you advance a point with which I disagree, I'm not willing to advance to the next point until that point has been resolved. There is no map or agenda; neither of us know where we are going, if we are honest, and I think we are both honest men. I wouldn't debate with you if I didn't believe that you were. So we labor forward, seeking an "answer" with which we can both agree, uncertain what that answer may be. We both have provisional answers, of course, but the answer that we may finally jointly discover is unknown to us. If we both have truly open minds, than the provisional answers that we both have are truly provisional. They aren't set in stone."
I think you would enjoy Penn Jillette's newish book, God, No! It's opening chapter concerns the courage and honor of saying "I don't know."
Thank you for this insightful hub.
Thank you for writting this hub! :) I rather enjoyed it. I as you probably know am of the Christian faith and I have written severl hubs about my faith. I to get confused by the need to fight to the death over beliefs. I fully realize that other people may not believe what I believe. I like to discuss but not argue. As for admitting if my belief is right or wrong. I would not believe if I did not think it to be true so thats a little hard to grasp but I can fully apreciate and understand other's viewpoints.
If one of us is wrong I hope it is me, for all those that do not believe I do not wish them the end that the bible talks about.
Well said.
That first comment about the atheists and rape? Uh, WTF?
@Mr.Happy: thanks for commenting. I consider myself normal in the sense that most everyone around me is abnormal, that should clear it up.
@Chasuk: I appreciate your comments. Your hub Bad Arguments has helped me see things much clearer. I'm always focusing on trying to decipher why people act/react the way they do on here. I will add Jillette's book to my reading list, a list which is growing quickly as I've been on hubpages. Please stop by and comment any time you wish, I respect your opinions.
@Sam: thanks for your comments, I appreciate the fact that you are a Christian and you can respect my beliefs. I really have only found a few religious people on here who don't try to "save" me. Thanks for stopping in and commenting, I appreciate it.
@Motown: I know, some things just don't make any sense, thanks for commenting.
Nicely written Cooldad. I think that your writing on this subject is evolving quite nicely and your really doing a good job of playing both sides (or all three sides counting the atheist sexual offenders) of the argument. But..not evolving like fish to monkeys to apes because that is just impossible. Just kidding.
Cool Post Cool Dad
As my belief is confused and undecided, I couldn't choose either the first or second choice in the poll, so I chose the Ann Rynd option because she is an extremist. I love the cartoons. I couldn't watch the Youtube video. I was told I had to go to the actual site to see it. I'm familiar with Ricky Gervais's beliefs, however. I saw him talk about this subject on Inside the Actor's Studio.
You hit it on the head in the first paragraph: all people should understand that their beliefs may be right and may be wrong. That is why we call it a "belief" in the first place. If it's true, then it's fact. You can't "believe" a fact, you "know" it. There is a huge difference and I feel that many people, theists and atheists alike, argue back and forth as it they "know," when no one does obviously.
I think that some Christians, at least those close to me, feel compelled to convert atheists because they don't want to see them suffer in what they believe will be the afterlife. Others do it out of sheer contempt for blasphemers. And, I'm sure there are other reasons also.
I agree that rape, ie. spreading your seed to increase reproductive success, is a biological desire. However, you don't need religion to control it. That is why we have laws and a general respect for social order. We aggregate into groups and engage in politics naturally for this reason. Comparing atheism to anarchy is ridiculous. I would rather trust in an elected official than a supernatural being that may or may not exist. The U.S. Constitution is not a religious document. It is law that we all abide by if we wish to live cohesively in this society. God is not required to maitain order...of course, I could be wrong. After all, I am not a prophet; merely a Criminal Justice major.
I generally like Dan Barker, but he was foolish in his "rape" reply. Look for it on YouTube. He provided his foes ammunition that will be used against him for the rest of his career, and he easily could have avoided it. He should have avoided it. Watch one of several YouTube videos which document his faux paus to see what I mean.
Hey Cooldad,
Great hub. Again, I like the straight forward approach. I'm trying to craft one along the same lines, but you and Chasuk (hello Chasuk) have both said a lot of things I would have wanted to say and said them well so perhaps I'll just move on to other things. . .
The only thing I would raise is regarding "Most people believe out of fear". I've seen this from many atheists. Some matter of factly (as I think you intend), and some as a put down. As I don't know most people I can't say this conclusively, but most believers I know do not exhibit fear. They exhibit certainty.
Now, to be fair, that certainty may be a sheild against fear, but I never see it displayed, so I don't know. And I accept that the vehement rebuttals from theists very often play that way.
As you know, I have deist leanings myself, firm in the belief of a creator, but agnostic.
Which only means I'm almost certainly wrong.
Which never stops me from having an opinion. . .:)
cheers
I'm a Christian and I found your HUB interesting. On the one side I agree with you, I am not offended or put out by what other people believe. However, you posed the question of why Christian feel they need to get people to believe in God.
As an atheist I would assume that you believe that when you die you just cease to exist. If you are right and I am wrong then what will happen to me is that I will just cease to exist. But if I am right and you are wrong then you will end up spending eternity in hell and even though I don't know you I would hate for that to be your eternity. So a Christians true desire to convince an atheist is birthed out of compassion.
I would disagree with your statement that you are a "non-believer" and that most Christians belief is fear based.
First off, there is no such thing as a "non-believer" because we all have been created to believe. You have just chosen to believe that there is no God. You are a believer just as I am a believer it's just that our belief system is different.
Secondly, faith and fear are opposing forces. They are the exact same thing, but in opposite directions. The reason a person will fear a rattle snake is simply because they believe in the power of that snake to harm them. You cannot believe out of fear. You may act out of fear, but it is impossible to believe out of fear.
As far as your final question, I couldn't admit that my belief could be wrong because the Bible is absolute truth :)
@PaulPd0:thanks for commenting. Evolving is an important element in life. I'm doing my best.
@Flora: thanks for commenting. Rand said a few good things, but she seemed a bit off to me. Sorry about the video, I had to change it, apparently CNN monitors youtube embedding.
@Jonesy: thanks as always for commenting. I think Christians feel it is their duty to convert everyone they can, and while their individual motivations for this may differ, it's incredibly annoying to me. I think it creates a sense of misguided righteousness in many of them.
@Chasuk: i agree. I'm not sure why he did that, his credibility was severely damaged with those statements.
@Anton:I think the fear aspect transforms over time. When children go to church and are told that they must follow God's word or they will go to hell, that instills fear. Then as they get older, they have to find ways to hide that fear and make it seem like it's not fear at all. To me, following God is ultimately based on fearing what will happen to you if you don't follow the rules. They can't hide from the fact that if you screw up, you burn in hell. That's insane to me. Thanks for commenting.
@The Rising Glory: thanks so much for commenting, I appreciate it. I respect your comments, but I do disagree with a couple things. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by, "we are all created to believe". I think people very much believe out of fear. When a child is taught at an impressionable age that if you don't follow God's bible, you will burn in hell, that's fear 100%. Then that child spends years not wanting to burn in a fiery pit, thus finding ways to disguise that fear as belief.
Your last statement is my main problem with believers, "I couldn't admit that my belief could be wrong because the Bible is the absolute truth," I think it's important to be have an open mind and understand that you may very well be wrong, and the same goes for me. But, in my experiences, most Christians are completely naive to think that their way is the only way. Thanks again for commenting.
Well said, CoolDad. The power of a belief controls people. Resistance to change and the inability to admit guilt or fear is crippling. Insistence on complete and total biblical "truth" baffles me.
Here's a quote that pretty much sums it up...
“Man…. Because he sacrifices his health in order to make money. Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health. And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."
— Dalai Lama XIV
@cooldad, you stated, "I think people very much believe out of fear. When a child is taught at an impressionable age that if you don't follow God's bible, you will burn in hell, that's fear 100%"
How do you differentiate the above statement with, "Don't touch the stove it will burn you?" Our goal is not to instill fear into the child, but information that is truth so they don't harm themselves.
As I understand your comment then pretty much all of life is fear based..."don't do drugs it's harmful, don't jump off high places it will hurt you, don't run out in the street a car will kill you." We are not fearful of drugs or cars (maybe high places, lol) but it's a belief system based on truth?
Good work cooldad!
One thing is quite clear to me, not all beliefs have the same value or the same likelihood of being in large part right or wrong.
Most religions are based on irrational beliefs and by definition have a much greater probability of being wrong in a number of areas and major parts of their information base than any rational, science based beliefs which use knowledge, objective discovery and critical examination as their foundation and their view of things to come.
Creationists are busy creating one smoke screen after another!
To simply say irrationality has the same value as rationality requires a degree in advanced ignorance which only illustrates the lack of understanding for any basic logical thought!
No discussion can advance very far if all ideas and beliefs are given equal weight no matter how silly they may be.
The likelihood of nature having to first create some god(s) to do all the things nature has been doing and will continue do in the future is statistically very close to 0%.
Will this ever satisfy religionoid minds before they can grasp reality and gain a more rational view of things? I give that chance the same probability of 0% ... :)
I don't have a problem picking Richard Dawkins as an example of a modern thinker and outstanding scientist, most of us could learn a lot from if we only knew how much more solid education in natural science, math and statistics it may take to clearly see how much irrationality our personal beliefs still contain! LOL
@austinstar: great quote and yes, resistance to change is absolutely crippling.
@therisingglory:when a child burns his/her hand on a stove, it will heal and they should learn their lesson. They won't burn eternally in hell for defying the parent and touching the stove anyway. To me, your example is apples and oranges and a bit of a strectch.
For me, most of life is knowledge and respect based. I don't swim with sharks because I respect their power and the fact that they could eat me. I don't use drugs because I understand that it's not the right thing to do.
@F_hruz: thanks for your comments, I appreciate it. I find the creationism arguments ever more interesting as science continues to point towards other more likely probabilities. Irreducible complexity cracks me up. There is way too much emotion and fear involved in discussing religion.
I think you hit the nail on the head, cooldad, when you said, "I have absolutely zero ego when it comes to my 'non-belief' system. But that's what makes me different than a lot of people."
A lot of people identify who they are with their beliefs, no matter what those beliefs may be; if their beliefs are challenged, their very identify is challenged, and this brings up a lot of fear of losing one's very existence. And so they defend their beliefs at all costs. Of course, one way of doing that is to "prove" that opposing beliefs are "wrong" since there is often no real proof that their beliefs are "right."
For me, beliefs are a way of determining what's "real" (an extremely flexible word) and what isn't. I want beliefs that create a positive real-ity for me; the rest don't matter because I know that the more attention I put on them, the more my reality begins to conform to them. At least that's what I believe :-).
Thanks for sharing your views on the subject. Rated up and interesting!
Greetings cooldad. Glad to see your back to writing on this topic after being away for awhile.
I've met many Christians who believe from their heart and want only to serve their god in a way that brings a greater level of humnanity to the world. I have no problem with that, what so ever.
The trouble starts when any religious extreamist settles into the belief that in order to please their god, they must convert if possible, slay if necessary.
What they miss, I feel, is that in doing so, they are still only serving themselves, because they use these acts to buy their way into their promised land.
It really is the greatest sales pitch ever invented. To prove to your god how much you believe, you must destroy anyone who believes something else.
To bad it didn't say anything in the religious texts about reducing our carbon footprint, or coming up with an realistic national health care system. Just think how much further we may have evolved by now.
Oh damn, I said evolved. Guess I'm going to hell.
Voted up
I like to raise the following point:
Since over 60% answered your question "Will you admit, your belief system could be wrong?" with "Absolutely, I could be wrong, but I sure hope not." ... does this indicate, blind hope is so wide spread, most hub people have a problem educating themselves a bit more by learning how to KNOW and rely less on unfounded HOPE?
Is it so hard to value a good education and some solid knowledge of science? Why do so many cling to religious texts to add more blind hope to their confused minds and ascribe to it equal value like having learned to apply reason and logic?
@pwalker: thanks for commenting and rating up, I appreciate it.
@TK: thanks for commenting. Excellent point about carbon footprint and health care, you may have influenced me to write a hub about that, we will see. Speaking of evolving, I just saw something on the news the other day about some new fossil discovery that was very interesting.
@f_hruz: I think that's exactly what it means. I 100% believe in evolution and I 100% believe there is no god and no possibility of one. But, I'm still trying to eliminate the possibility that we are living in the Matrix (i jest).
Education has become difficult. We should be educating our youth that evolution is more than just a theory, but we can't because of the religious right. So, people are burdened with having to educate themselves and that doesn't always work out to well.
Most atheists use logic and reason to determine what the truth is. With this assumption I think most atheists would believe in a god provided their was sufficient evidence. However, none of the current religions come anywhere close to having sufficient evidence.
If there were sufficient evidence of god or gods, we wouldn't be atheists in the first place!
@cory: I agree. But I doubt there will ever be sufficient evidence of that. There may be more evidence to support us living in the Matrix, only time will tell.
@Austinstar: very true
Another awesome hub, cooldad!
Excellent post, very thought provoking which is both good and bad, depending on your religious tolerance! Couple of points I think are worth mentioning- not believing in a god is not a religious belief. Too many fundamentalist use this as an invalid argumant. If not believing is a belief, then all persons, include devout Christians, would have multiple beliefs- in everything they don't believe in, including, but not limited to, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, as well as every other conceivable idea ever postulated by man. Confusing, huh?
That being said, I don't think it's totally possible to be a true athiest, that is someone who states that no god exist, because as it cant be proven one exist, it also cant be proven one doesn't. I think non-believers are essentially agnostic.
Second, Rising Glory uses pascals wager to defend his belief, but that too has flaws. You think that your position of believing at the time of judgement is better than that of a nonbeliever, but what if your believing in the wrong god? Or the right god, but in the wrong way? How tolerant is your god, and are you absolutely sure that you chose the correct path? I'm agnostic, meaning I admit that I'm not sure on any religion or god because I prefer more evidence before making that kind of critical decision. You chose to believe one path and deny all others. So if you're wrong, maybe you'll burn in hell for your ardent belief in false gods whereas the benevolent god may have mercy on my soul because I am willing to believe but used my rational, god- given intellegence to question what may be false beliefs or false gods, and waited for definite proof before making the mistake of following false prophets.
Uh, trainman, if there were definite proof either one way or the other, no one would be writing a hub about it.
Proof in religion is very subjective. It requires a strange thing called faith. That is actually the only requirement for belief in God.
Unfortunately, my "god given" brain makes me want more concrete proof and that is what you call agnosticism. Whatever. I think that after thousands of years, there really should be some kind of actual physical proof of God. A proof that no one can argue with. Until that shows up, I'll continue being an "atheist".
1. Sorry, but I would have to disagree on that one. If god were provable, I think there would be quite a few hubs about it.
2. Faith is the only requirement for anything that is unprovable. That is the definition of the word. You have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow, but there is no certainty that it will. Faith is simply the choice to believe in something unprovable, but has no affect on making it real.
3. Atheism is the complete disbelief in a higher power, including a deity, or god. Agnostic is the idea that one cannot know convincingly whether there is or isn't a higher power. Just as you and I require proof to believe in a god, I would think the same ideology would apply in reverse to say that you should have proof to not believe in a god as well. Just as I can't prove that the sun will rise tomorrow, so I must leave the option open that it may not.
Trainman, what you're saying in your third paragraph is that, since you require proof to believe in something, you should also require proof to NOT believe in something.
The logical implication of this premise -- if we're to apply it consistently -- is that you should believe EVERYTHING unless it is proven false. Do you see the problem here?
There are two points from which to proceed with regard to belief: You either believe EVERYTHING until you have good reason not to, or you believe NOTHING until you have good reason to do so. These are not equivalent propositions.
Sure there would be hubs about a provable God. But there would be no hubs about atheist versus believer. You made my point for me.
Although, with so many people arguing over trivial details, it would not surprise me in the least if people continued to argue over the actual "proof" whatever that would be.
Paladin: good point, and I guess I did word that incorrectly. What I meant is that one must leave the possibility of all things open unless we have undeniable proof that those thing cannot exist/ happen. Accepting that all things are possible and believing in any one of those possibilities are two seperate things, typically based on the probability of their possibility. In error I stated that one needs proof to not believe in something, but better worded would be one would need proof to not believe in the possibility of something.
I guess to not sound to redundant and trivial, my point in all this is that although I dont specifically believe in a god (because the probability seems too unlikely), I can't deny the possibility for the existence of one. Therefore, people who claim outright that no god exist (atheist) are essentially saying they know undeniably that no possibility exists for a god.
Mr. Happy Level 7 Commenter 8 months ago
"I think it's important that all people understand that whatever they believe in could be wrong or could be right. Why is that so hard to grasp?" - Monotheistic Gods do not allow for a difference of opinion. They're right and everyone else is wrong - I think it sort of goes along those lines.
"I see the world as a regular man" - I have an issue with "normal people", "regular people" and so on. What's normal, or regular? Normal to whom? Where? Those terms confuse me.
"To me, the Bible is just a collection of stories handed down over time. Kind of like the telephone game." - LOL You're honestly hilarious!! I loved that. Hey, it's your opinion and I think it's cool. Personally, I would categorize it as a philosophical piece of writing. That's just my opinion though.
Great blog. Cheers!